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	<title>Comments on: Article &#124; My Seven Essential Second-step Fantasies</title>
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	<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/</link>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4214</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4214</guid>
		<description>An excellent list overall Aidan.  

I would add a few essentials - LeGuin&#039;s Earthsea (which GP mentions above), Robert Holdstock&#039;s Mythago Wood and Lavondyss (two of the greatest fantasy novels ever written, though the books that carry on after these two lost their way in the woods, so to speak) and Susanna Clarke&#039;s Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr Norrell.

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn certainly belongs on any list of fantasy must-reads.  Derivative?  Somewhat, but beautifully written, steeped in northern mythology, and holding a fabulous tension throughout.

There are several that were mentioned above that I would not rank as anywhere near the best that fantasy has to offer, but I dislike criticizing the tastes of others, so I will refrain.

I was rather disappointed to read in the quoted paragraph that The Lord of the Rings had been grouped with several others as &quot;about a fourth-grade reading level&quot; which it is certainly not.  The absence of the sex, gratuitous violence, and gritty realism of the current line of popular fantasy authors (Martin, Abercrombie, et al) does not make LotR less adult, poignant, and relevant than it has always been.  I think this is more of a knee-jerk reaction against LotR simply because it has become so popular and pervasive in our culture.

Overall, great list.  Purchased the Scott Lynch novel today since I wasn&#039;t previously familiar with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent list overall Aidan.  </p>
<p>I would add a few essentials &#8211; LeGuin&#8217;s Earthsea (which GP mentions above), Robert Holdstock&#8217;s Mythago Wood and Lavondyss (two of the greatest fantasy novels ever written, though the books that carry on after these two lost their way in the woods, so to speak) and Susanna Clarke&#8217;s Jonathan Strange &amp; Mr Norrell.</p>
<p>Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn certainly belongs on any list of fantasy must-reads.  Derivative?  Somewhat, but beautifully written, steeped in northern mythology, and holding a fabulous tension throughout.</p>
<p>There are several that were mentioned above that I would not rank as anywhere near the best that fantasy has to offer, but I dislike criticizing the tastes of others, so I will refrain.</p>
<p>I was rather disappointed to read in the quoted paragraph that The Lord of the Rings had been grouped with several others as &#8220;about a fourth-grade reading level&#8221; which it is certainly not.  The absence of the sex, gratuitous violence, and gritty realism of the current line of popular fantasy authors (Martin, Abercrombie, et al) does not make LotR less adult, poignant, and relevant than it has always been.  I think this is more of a knee-jerk reaction against LotR simply because it has become so popular and pervasive in our culture.</p>
<p>Overall, great list.  Purchased the Scott Lynch novel today since I wasn&#8217;t previously familiar with it.</p>
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		<title>By: GP</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4111</link>
		<dc:creator>GP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 06:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4111</guid>
		<description>to address the lack of female authors...

1. Rah-Kirah (Transformation, Revelation, Restoration) by Carol Berg (most guys i know like this one)
2. Age of the Five by Trudi Canavan
3. Fortress of... by C. J. Cherryh
5. Rhapsody by Elizabeth Haydon
6. Sword Dancer by Jennifer Roberson
7. Essalyean by Michelle West
8. Earthsea by Ursula LeGuin

these are all series, i&#039;m having trouble remembering stand-alone titles off the top of my head...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to address the lack of female authors&#8230;</p>
<p>1. Rah-Kirah (Transformation, Revelation, Restoration) by Carol Berg (most guys i know like this one)<br />
2. Age of the Five by Trudi Canavan<br />
3. Fortress of&#8230; by C. J. Cherryh<br />
5. Rhapsody by Elizabeth Haydon<br />
6. Sword Dancer by Jennifer Roberson<br />
7. Essalyean by Michelle West<br />
8. Earthsea by Ursula LeGuin</p>
<p>these are all series, i&#8217;m having trouble remembering stand-alone titles off the top of my head&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Whitehead</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4105</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Whitehead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 19:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4105</guid>
		<description>Like I said, the point of the original list was to find a list of starter works in the explicity epic fantasy subgenre, and that&#039;s what I was responding to. A list reflecting the wider spec fic field would obviously be more varied.

As I have said before, I do not assemble lists by racial profiling, and will not do so in the future, although I do need to radically increase my reading of female authors which is pretty woeful at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like I said, the point of the original list was to find a list of starter works in the explicity epic fantasy subgenre, and that&#8217;s what I was responding to. A list reflecting the wider spec fic field would obviously be more varied.</p>
<p>As I have said before, I do not assemble lists by racial profiling, and will not do so in the future, although I do need to radically increase my reading of female authors which is pretty woeful at the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4101</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 06:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4101</guid>
		<description>Yes, I read Adam&#039;s piece and almost left a comment there the other day that would have stated why I disagreed with that comment of his you highlighted.  Is the point of having such lists to create some sort of homogenized &quot;starter&quot; list that just happens to be WASP/male dominated?  Or is that just the by-product of not questioning why the list (which apparently came from what might be termed a &quot;garden-variety Caucasian fantasy reader&quot;) is rather monotonous in tone/feel...and &lt;i&gt;which likely would not represent the diversity of tastes of the readers of the magazine in which it was published&lt;/i&gt;?

That&#039;s the elephant in the room, I suppose...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I read Adam&#8217;s piece and almost left a comment there the other day that would have stated why I disagreed with that comment of his you highlighted.  Is the point of having such lists to create some sort of homogenized &#8220;starter&#8221; list that just happens to be WASP/male dominated?  Or is that just the by-product of not questioning why the list (which apparently came from what might be termed a &#8220;garden-variety Caucasian fantasy reader&#8221;) is rather monotonous in tone/feel&#8230;and <i>which likely would not represent the diversity of tastes of the readers of the magazine in which it was published</i>?</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the elephant in the room, I suppose&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4094</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4094</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read &#039;em all, but I&#039;ve read at least something from each of those authors. Looks like you&#039;ve covered a good many styles and approaches there. Good list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read &#8216;em all, but I&#8217;ve read at least something from each of those authors. Looks like you&#8217;ve covered a good many styles and approaches there. Good list.</p>
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		<title>By: aidan</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4093</link>
		<dc:creator>aidan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4093</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Peta&lt;/strong&gt; - I suppose &#039;easing&#039; is the best way of describing my list. There are maybe better representations of the heights to which Fantasy can achieve, but I didn&#039;t want to throw new readers into the deep end.

&lt;strong&gt;Mark&lt;/strong&gt; - Of course, and that&#039;s why it&#039;s important for multiple lists to exist. It&#039;s also why I wanted to include such variants as &lt;strong&gt;The Anubis Gates&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;strong&gt;War of the Flowers&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;A Game of Thrones&lt;/strong&gt; - to give the reader a variety of starting points, based on their preference/tastes. I wouldn&#039;t send a 12-year-old cousin after Lynch and Martin, and I wouldn&#039;t send my classical-reading, philosophy-major friend after Brooks.

This list is, obviously, not exhaustive, and, supposing they enjoy some of the books on the list, there&#039;s all the time in the world for them to trawl the genre themselves and find some of the more niche novelists who might tickle their fancy, but not mine. As Adam said in his response, we&#039;re not trying to show off cinema by digging out obscure art house flicks, but by pointing them at some major releases. When one has little experience with a genre/medium, it can be jarring to be thrown in the deep end. Of course, there are always exceptions to this rule.

That all being said, just remember that authors like Brooks &lt;em&gt;did&lt;/em&gt; provide a very positive first impression for a &lt;strong&gt;lot&lt;/strong&gt; of people, myself included. You don&#039;t sell that many novels if people don&#039;t enjoy your work.

&lt;strong&gt;deslily&lt;/strong&gt; - I didn&#039;t read Weis &amp; Hickman, and Eddings is an author I&#039;d warn newbies to stay far, far away from.

&lt;strong&gt;Larry&lt;/strong&gt; - Yep, and I mentioned it as a list that would be great for people who are more familiar with the genre (like me!). I suppose it is more of a companion or follow-up piece to the &lt;strong&gt;New Yorker&lt;/strong&gt; list, rather than a response.

Speaking of your list, I ran into a copy of &lt;strong&gt;2666&lt;/strong&gt; at a used bookstore the other day, and considered buying it until I flipped through the pages and ran into a paragraph that lasted pages. I&#039;d be curious to learn more about the novel, though.

&lt;strong&gt;CupofDice&lt;/strong&gt; - Not on my list. I made it through the first six books, and I&#039;m waiting to hear how Sanderson succeeds before deciding whether I&#039;ll finish it. I suppose it could have been an honourable mention, but it has too many ups and downs in terms of quality to really successfully represent the genre.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Peta</strong> &#8211; I suppose &#8216;easing&#8217; is the best way of describing my list. There are maybe better representations of the heights to which Fantasy can achieve, but I didn&#8217;t want to throw new readers into the deep end.</p>
<p><strong>Mark</strong> &#8211; Of course, and that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s important for multiple lists to exist. It&#8217;s also why I wanted to include such variants as <strong>The Anubis Gates</strong>, <strong>War of the Flowers</strong> and <strong>A Game of Thrones</strong> &#8211; to give the reader a variety of starting points, based on their preference/tastes. I wouldn&#8217;t send a 12-year-old cousin after Lynch and Martin, and I wouldn&#8217;t send my classical-reading, philosophy-major friend after Brooks.</p>
<p>This list is, obviously, not exhaustive, and, supposing they enjoy some of the books on the list, there&#8217;s all the time in the world for them to trawl the genre themselves and find some of the more niche novelists who might tickle their fancy, but not mine. As Adam said in his response, we&#8217;re not trying to show off cinema by digging out obscure art house flicks, but by pointing them at some major releases. When one has little experience with a genre/medium, it can be jarring to be thrown in the deep end. Of course, there are always exceptions to this rule.</p>
<p>That all being said, just remember that authors like Brooks <em>did</em> provide a very positive first impression for a <strong>lot</strong> of people, myself included. You don&#8217;t sell that many novels if people don&#8217;t enjoy your work.</p>
<p><strong>deslily</strong> &#8211; I didn&#8217;t read Weis &#038; Hickman, and Eddings is an author I&#8217;d warn newbies to stay far, far away from.</p>
<p><strong>Larry</strong> &#8211; Yep, and I mentioned it as a list that would be great for people who are more familiar with the genre (like me!). I suppose it is more of a companion or follow-up piece to the <strong>New Yorker</strong> list, rather than a response.</p>
<p>Speaking of your list, I ran into a copy of <strong>2666</strong> at a used bookstore the other day, and considered buying it until I flipped through the pages and ran into a paragraph that lasted pages. I&#8217;d be curious to learn more about the novel, though.</p>
<p><strong>CupofDice</strong> &#8211; Not on my list. I made it through the first six books, and I&#8217;m waiting to hear how Sanderson succeeds before deciding whether I&#8217;ll finish it. I suppose it could have been an honourable mention, but it has too many ups and downs in terms of quality to really successfully represent the genre.</p>
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		<title>By: CupofDice</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4092</link>
		<dc:creator>CupofDice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4092</guid>
		<description>And where is The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And where is The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4091</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4091</guid>
		<description>I believe you misread my post.  I had no interest in writing a list for &quot;beginners,&quot; as I explicitly stated that I was writing a list for those who were jaded and wanted something that wasn&#039;t &quot;genrerific.&quot;  In other words, I created a list for those who were tired of MEP or those who wanted something closer to &quot;literary&quot; fiction.  That&#039;s why my post referenced the original title and made sport of it ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe you misread my post.  I had no interest in writing a list for &#8220;beginners,&#8221; as I explicitly stated that I was writing a list for those who were jaded and wanted something that wasn&#8217;t &#8220;genrerific.&#8221;  In other words, I created a list for those who were tired of MEP or those who wanted something closer to &#8220;literary&#8221; fiction.  That&#8217;s why my post referenced the original title and made sport of it <img src='http://aidanmoher.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: deslily</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4089</link>
		<dc:creator>deslily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4089</guid>
		<description>I see very few &quot;epics&quot; are of the &quot;old age&quot;.. I rather think Weis and HIckmans Dragonlance series was done with longevity as well as David Eddings Belgarian series.. but I guess they would be &quot;grouped with&quot; Lord of the Rings...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see very few &#8220;epics&#8221; are of the &#8220;old age&#8221;.. I rather think Weis and HIckmans Dragonlance series was done with longevity as well as David Eddings Belgarian series.. but I guess they would be &#8220;grouped with&#8221; Lord of the Rings&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4087</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4087</guid>
		<description>I think the thing to remember is that not everyone comes to the genre from one direction. This isn&#039;t a one way street. It&#039;s a sprawling junction of literary tastes. To let more advance readers have someone like Brooks as their first experience of genre, could really turn them off and they might never return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the thing to remember is that not everyone comes to the genre from one direction. This isn&#8217;t a one way street. It&#8217;s a sprawling junction of literary tastes. To let more advance readers have someone like Brooks as their first experience of genre, could really turn them off and they might never return.</p>
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		<title>By: Peta</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4086</link>
		<dc:creator>Peta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4086</guid>
		<description>War of the Flowers is a great book and I&#039;m really pleased to see it included on this list. I have such very fond memories of reading the MS&amp;T series (several times!) as a teenager and Williams, along with authors like Brooks and Feist, is a great way to ease a newbie into the Fantasy genre.

I have both The Lies of Locke Lamora &amp; Tigana on my &quot;TBR&quot; pile so I guess it&#039;s time I read them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>War of the Flowers is a great book and I&#8217;m really pleased to see it included on this list. I have such very fond memories of reading the MS&amp;T series (several times!) as a teenager and Williams, along with authors like Brooks and Feist, is a great way to ease a newbie into the Fantasy genre.</p>
<p>I have both The Lies of Locke Lamora &amp; Tigana on my &#8220;TBR&#8221; pile so I guess it&#8217;s time I read them!</p>
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		<title>By: aidan</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4085</link>
		<dc:creator>aidan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4085</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Joe.

&lt;strong&gt;Memory, Sorrow and Thorn&lt;/strong&gt; and I have a rocky past. I read &lt;strong&gt;The Dragonbone Chair&lt;/strong&gt; three-and-a-half times before the series finally clicked, but once it did, I absolutely adored it. I suppose the reason it makes the list, over stuff like Feist or Sandserson or Brett is for those who enjoy taking a step back and falling into a novel, head over heels. I expect a lot of people, especially those with a background in the classics, might actually enjoy the more languid pace of &lt;strong&gt;Memory, Sorrow and Thorn&lt;/strong&gt;, though I certainly understand that it&#039;s not for everyone.

I actually went back to it after finishing &lt;strong&gt;Shadowmarch&lt;/strong&gt; and really enjoying it. So maybe it&#039;s worth it for you to give &lt;strong&gt;War of the Flowers&lt;/strong&gt; a shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Joe.</p>
<p><strong>Memory, Sorrow and Thorn</strong> and I have a rocky past. I read <strong>The Dragonbone Chair</strong> three-and-a-half times before the series finally clicked, but once it did, I absolutely adored it. I suppose the reason it makes the list, over stuff like Feist or Sandserson or Brett is for those who enjoy taking a step back and falling into a novel, head over heels. I expect a lot of people, especially those with a background in the classics, might actually enjoy the more languid pace of <strong>Memory, Sorrow and Thorn</strong>, though I certainly understand that it&#8217;s not for everyone.</p>
<p>I actually went back to it after finishing <strong>Shadowmarch</strong> and really enjoying it. So maybe it&#8217;s worth it for you to give <strong>War of the Flowers</strong> a shot.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Sherry</title>
		<link>http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/08/articles/article-my-seven-essential-second-step-fantasies/comment-page-1/#comment-4084</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Sherry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=1501#comment-4084</guid>
		<description>I think that&#039;s a much better list, Aidan.  It beats the New Yorker list.  

I still disagree with MS&amp;T.  For me it&#039;s a turnoff for fantasy and always has been.  I would definitely put Magician in its place.  

I haven&#039;t read War of the Flowers, but Running With the Demon is an excellent alternative entryway novel.  But then, MS&amp;T has given me a serious Tad Williams mental block and I&#039;m not likely to get to it anytime soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s a much better list, Aidan.  It beats the New Yorker list.  </p>
<p>I still disagree with MS&amp;T.  For me it&#8217;s a turnoff for fantasy and always has been.  I would definitely put Magician in its place.  </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read War of the Flowers, but Running With the Demon is an excellent alternative entryway novel.  But then, MS&amp;T has given me a serious Tad Williams mental block and I&#8217;m not likely to get to it anytime soon.</p>
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