Earlier today, I stumbled across some interesting discussion from industry folk. In the thread, they discuss a fairly damning comment made by David Drake, another Tor author, of both Jordan’s and Tor’s handling of the middle books in the enormously successful Wheel of Time series.
Drake’s original comment:
Dear People,
What I said was that when Jim Rigney’s work became a significant part of not only the Tor but the Von Holzbrink bottom line, the plots for individual volumes were decided by very highly placed people in council with the author.
Business was expanded to a complete volume where it might originally have been one of several strands in a volume, and the action in minor theaters (so to speak) was followed when the author might have been willing to elide it.
I further said and will repeat: there were quite a lot of people who sneered at ‘Robert Jordan’ but whose own books wouldn’t have been published without the Wheel of Time to subsidize them. Since the onset of Jim’s (Jim Rigney’s) illness, he hadn’t been able to write–and a lot of those people are not being published any more.
Dave Drake
Drake’s position as a Tor author might have given him some more insight into the situation than the average industry person (and many off-the-record conversations are likely to happen, especially with regards to such a highly-touted and successful series as The Wheel of Time) and certainly more than fans, but it rings odd to go out of the way to speak publicly about a fellow author in such a way. Drake was also involved in Robert Jordan’s Citadel memorial dedication (2008), suggesting that his comments weren’t meant as an attack against a friend, but as an attempt at clarifying the regrettable direction his friends’ series had taken in recent volumes.
Andrew Wheeler had a different understanding of the situation:
[W]hat I heard at the time was that Tor knew nothing about the content of the last few main-sequence “Wheel of Time” books until they arrived in the office (already edited by his wife and editor, Harriet McDougal). Also, if you look at the solicitation catalog copy for those books, you’ll find that it is exceptionally vague and often bears little relation to the final book — usually a sign that the folks in the office have no idea what will be in that book.
The conversation also gives some fairly detailed (but anecdotal) ideas of the sales numbers for the series and the revenue it produced during that period for Jordan and Tor Books. Certainly some striking numbers and, given the flaws in the series (especially the glacial pacing of books 7-10), one has to wonder if there isn’t some truth to Drake’s words. That’s not to say that Jordan was manipulating his readers or maliciously milking them for cash, he was too dedicated to his craft (especially when one considers the monumental efforts given in the weeks before his death to ensure that the necessary materials existed that would allow Brandon Sanderson to step in an finish The Wheel of Time) to intentionally damage the integrity of the series, but if there’s one thing that many writers of Epic Fantasy fight against, it’s falling too in love with their own creation and allowing that passion to get in the way of the storytelling that originally defined the strengths of their series. It’s generally an editor’s job to make sure that this doesn’t happen. The Shaido/Faile, the Bowl of Winds and hey-it’s-that-again! Circus Troupe storylines in The Wheel of Time all feel like aspects of the series that Jordan probably loved, but that a determined editor could (and should) have pruned down significantly. With Tor’s bottom-line affected so heavily (and positively) by each release in Jordan’s series, you can’t blame them if, all of a sudden, they started to encourage him to delve deeper into side-stories and characters that should have remained shallow facets of the series. And can you then blame Jordan for taking the long leash he was given and running with it? Fans were still buying, and loving, the novels, after all. We’ve seen this same thing happen with George R.R. Martin in recent volumes of A Song of Ice and Fire and, some would argue, Patrick Rothfuss’ The Wise Man’s Fear.
This conversation began on September 19th, 2007, just days after Jordan’s passing (which, it could be fairly argued, is in somewhat poor taste), and opinions/truths may have changed in the five years since, and other discussions may have been held that properly refute these claims/suggestions, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless. What do you think about Drake’s comments?
It’s interesting. Given the role WOT played in Tor’s bottom line, I wouldn’t be surprised if Drake were right. I also wouldn’t hold it against Tor or Jordan. It’s called GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. ;)
I’m not sure if Drake is right or not, but isn’t the most important thing the author him or herself. I have a hard time believing that they wouldn’t have been just as happy to have him finish the series and then sign him up for another. It still seems more like a falling in love with your work/not knowing how to handle all the threads that happened more than a business decision to me.
The way I read Drake’s comments, he was defending Jordan against the idea (which I remember being a fairly popular theory) that he was insistent on prolonging the story and had become so powerful he rode roughshod over the editorial staff’s judgments. Drake implies that the pressure was more the other way: although RJ might have been “willing to elide” some of the tangential plot material, he was at least encouraged not to.
I distinctly remember bowing out of the series when it hit the Bowl of Winds section. I had already begun to lose interest by that point, and when I realized we were following a side quest to a side quest which seemed to involve lots of boring and pointless travel, I quit and never returned.
So whether Drake is correct or not seems to beside the point. An editor should have taken a moral stand regardless of whether it was executive pressure or authorial indulgence and drawn a line across which the series should not have mindlessly meandered.
Also: wasn’t the whole series created after the fact due to the first stand alone novel being such a success? I heard somewhere that the publishers encouraged Jordan to turn it into a series when he had no original plans to. Is this true?
you, know I’ll be honest right now. This is a bullshit question and coversation. There are multiple sides and perspectives (inside, outside, fan, not fan, disgruntled fan, etct.) and it can even be quite interesting at times. But, I don’t think anything will convince those that believe Jordan was a sellout that he isn’t and I don’t think anything will convince the adoring fans that believe he wasn’t.
I say just let the man rest in peace (and we can all read books in the mean time, whether Jordan’s or not).
As neth said, there are multiple sides and perspectives. And the conversation bears that out – it is a nuanced one dealing with realities of the publishing industry.
Your title on the other hand, loses all subtlety completely. Very unexpected from you, Aiden.
I’m not sure that subtlety has ever been a strong point of mine.
The title was to get people reading, and I think it does an excellent job of that. Everyone’s going to click through to see more. The more people, the better discussion (hopefully).
Definitely anecdotal but would also coincide w/ the rise of national book chains and practice of heavy discounts on new release books to chase out independent shops. I imagine publishers were hungry for revenue.
The comment from Drake I find the most annoying is the acknowledgement that the big names basically subsidize everyone else. I do not think that sort of “blockbuster” mentality is healthy.
@WordTipping — From a couple of conversations I’ve had with industry folk, that mentality has only grown since Drake first made those comments. The publishing industry is heading further and further down a path that looks eerily similar to the one taken by the film industry. If you’re annoyed here, prepare to be even more frustrated in the future (and continue to support publishers like Night Shade Books or Pyr Books that seem to rely on a more even-levelled catalogue.)
Let me just say this– the lack of subtlety is what prompted me to read this post despite the fact that I dropped out of following the WoT several books ago.
It sounds as if Tor has been using the WoT to subsidize their business. Having a marquee name brings in money and publishing is a business before anything else. I look at it from the point of view that the money generated on the back of guys like RJ (and now Brandon Sanderson) allows the publisher to nurture up-and-coming talent. And I’m sure a lot of other lightweight, trendy fiction is put on the shelves for the same reason. The problem is when the “fluff” takes over as the drive for profit pushes out quality. I don’t know what the literary equivalent of reality-TV is, but I’m afraid to find out.
Love the look of the updated site btw.
I don’t think it’s bullshit. I think it’s an interesting bit of inside baseball speculation about why an author whose books grew more and more (I say bloated, some might say detailed) over time. Like the evolution of Laurel K Hamilton, changes in writing style alienated some original viewers and it is always interesting to speculate why. As bad as I felt the books had become, if it made it easier for other authors to be published, then it’s great. If. It. Did.
My issue w/ the blockbuster mentality is it promotes a homogeneous low risk market. Everyone is looking for lightning in a bottle. It can subsidize new authors, but how many of those new authors never see a second contract because they never paid off their advance?
That is why I think you are right about smaller pubs like Pyr. A smaller more curated selection of books, each while maybe not a blockbuster, isn’t a loss. Compare that to a pub like Tor who, I think, releases books just to deny competitor a little shelf space.
I love the WoT books unconditionally. Just a disclaimer. I’m sure they could have been improved but i don’t give a shit. If your not willing to take the bad with the amazing then you’re not willing to live.
However. I really enjoyed this article. Well written Mr. Moher. Thoughtfully and tastefully put together. I think Drake was also tastefully giving his opinion in a way that should be respected and from a position of knowledge that should also be respected. I haven’t a clue as to how reliable it is though. As i doubt anyone else, besides Jordan and those he worked with, does either.
Ah, this is conspiratorial BS. Why is it so hard for people to accept that the Wheel of Time was RJ’s passion? That after he had published 7 books, he had become so successful that he could get published by any company, and as such he was able to write the story anyway he pleased. Obviously, books 8,9, and 10 are the slowest, but when read back-to-back they have a good flow to them. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been edited down to make a better story though.
Here is what we do know: Jordan had planned 2 more prequels, a trilogy that revolved around Mat and Tuon, and a 6-10 book series called Infinity of Heaven. Jordan was already a bestselling author by the time book 8 was released, with plenty of material for different series, he didn’t need to slow his story to a crawl to “milk his readers for all their money.” All anyone has to do if they are interested in the truth rather than silly conspiracies is look at the outline that RJ left for Brandon Sanderson. The final book turned into three! Jordan loved writing, had a wealth of information on the WoT series, and made a few bad decisions in the process.
I will agree with Drake that Wheel of Time definitely allowed other authors to be published by Tor.
And yes, superbly selling authors have power and leverage over their editors and publishers in sometimes unhealthy ways. I only read the first couple of Wheel of Time novels and decided I wanted to read other stuff instead. As much fantasy and epic fantasy as I read, Wheel of Time didn’t thrill me as much as I thought it would.
An upstream comment about Laurell K Hamilton does provide more ancillary evidence for this phenomenon; I stopped reading that series when it got self-indulgent and bloated.
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@Silence You seriously think that the decision to publish the last WOT book as 3 books wasn’t a commercial decision by Tor to milk the series for all its worth?
I don’t think RJ stretched things. I think WoT was a run away success and he was given free reign. I doubt that his hand was forced on specific plot lines as I can’t imagine RJ being strong armed in that way.
Counter to most people, books 8, 9 and 10 are among my favorite. One of the reasons why is that the books really get away from the Campbellian cycle that was so prevalent in the earlier books. You see the character interacting in a much more organic way. Sure, the plot drags to a crawl, but you get to see several of the characters in a whole new light.
Of course, I am also biased. Mat is my favorite character and it is in these books that I think he really blooms. The interplay between him, his men, Tylin, Tuon and others is a great read. I like that Nyanaeve actually becomes interesting for a change. I was very frustrated that Elayne and Egwene continued to be least interesting and boring story lines.
I have had a harder time reading the books since Brandon Sanderson took over. Not out of any sort of grudge, the books just read differently and not in a way I enjoy as much. It is frustrating because I like Sanderson’s original work and was excited about his WoT work when it was announced.
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[…] Comment: Was Robert Jordan a Sellout?, posted by A Dribble of Ink […]
“You seriously think that the decision to publish the last WOT book as 3 books wasn’t a commercial decision by Tor to milk the series for all its worth?”
According to Brandon Sanderson, no. The notes left by Robert Jordan were far too detailed for one novel, although that’s what Sanderson initially aimed for. He did say very early in the process that it would have to be split in two. I also got the impression that Sanderson thought Jordan had been insanely optimistic to think it could have been possible to have gotten through the material in one novel but was too diplomatic to put it in those words.
When the decision came to split it into three instead, Sanderson seemed surprised and many people (including myself at the time) came to believe that Tor had done so for commercial reasons. However, I later heard (not directly from Tor, so somewhat speculative) that Tor had seen the expected word-count rocket up from a 400,000-word single novel to 750,000 words over two novels and were concerned that it was going to go up further, and that by confirming two novels and later going to three they would damage their PR, so they went to three instead (not ruling out downsizing to two if Sanderson could keep the word count down). Instead, the word-count for the three books-as-published has topped out at just under 1 million words, which was completely unpublishable in just two volumes. Reading THE GATHERING STORM and (especially) TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT, it is clear that those events could not have been condensed into one book, let alone two-thirds of one book. TOWERS in fact feels rather rushed compared to the last few books. This isn’t a bad thing, but some plot elements that Jordan would have spelt out in a bit more depth are left feeling a little under-developed as a result. But for the most part Sanderson has done an excellent job.
“Also: wasn’t the whole series created after the fact due to the first stand alone novel being such a success? I heard somewhere that the publishers encouraged Jordan to turn it into a series when he had no original plans to. Is this true?”
No, not at all. Jordan apparently conceived of the WHEEL OF TIME universe and storyline somewhere around 1979, and spent five years developing it whilst writing other books. In 1984 he proposed the series – as a trilogy! – to Tom Doherty with an outline. Doherty read the outline for the first book – which ended with the hero (not Rand at this stage but an older character more like Tam) claiming Callandor and being acknowledged the Dragon Reborn – and realised it was never going to be a trilogy. He gave Jordan a contract for six books instead. Jordan then spent five years struggling with various problems (downsizing the hero – apparently at Tor’s suggestion – from an older war veteran to a teenage boy) before completing THE EYE OF THE WORLD. He also had all of THE GREAT HUNT completed by the time TEotW was published and was some way into writing THE DRAGON REBORN. He thus had a long lead-time which allowed subsequent books (until LORD OF CHAOS) to come out at 12-month intervals.
It would be interesting to read the original outline that Jordan gave to Tor (if it has survived). I suspect it’s rather different to what we’ve ended up with, but some of the underlying ideas will be the same. And certainly the fact that Jordan spent a long time planning the series before it was published doesn’t mean a lot of stuff wasn’t created on the fly. For example, Jordan only had a very vague idea about what Cairhien and Tear were like whilst writing the first book, and only developed them when the action actually moved there (in fact, he apparently only created a map late in the process, at Tor’s urging, and had been happier to leave things without a map and quite vague). At some point he did stop and did a massive world-building binge, probably around the time LORD OF CHAOS came out, given the explosion in detailed background info on the founding of Andor and so on that started appearing at that time. It was also around the time that he created maps of Shara and Seanchan, just in case he needed them; they later showed up in the world book.
What Drake intimates makes sense… the huge success financially of each novel would have encouraged Tor into looking for more stories to be told for the WoT world to be included, allowing the story to expand. The pace of a book every two years was still being kept and sales weren’t dropping. What motivation was there to change anything or tighten it up? It’s a tough balance – I’m sure authors have to be ruthless to meet word counts, etc, however when you reach RJ’s level I doubt there that much requirement to do so.
Look at GRRM’s series – the last book is probably the most financially successful of them all, but it suffers from the same pacing issues that plagued the WoT middle books.
@Adam’s response is consistent with what I have read. RJ proposed, comically, a trilogy. TD gave a six book deal to RJ. Three books in, WoT was a run away success.
I think it is here where Drake’s comments come into play. Wrapping the series in six books would have been difficult. Tor had incentive to stretch the books out. RJ wanted more breathing room for his story. I still doubt RJ had his story directions dictated to him.
I think you see that change in philosophy with FoHeaven being nearly 40% bigger than the previous book and significant more time being spent on minor characters and plots. The main characters have increasingly divergent story lines.
As a side note, the sales number in that Google Groups thread does highlight how small the book industry is compared to other industries such as video games. It also highlights why piracy can have such a big impact. An author loosing even 500-1500 sales to piracy is a 2-3% swing in sales, at 40,000 hardcovers sold, which is significant in a thin margin business. Of course, how much piracy affects sales is an entirely different debate.
“I think you see that change in philosophy with FoHeaven being nearly 40% bigger than the previous book”
I agree that Book 5 is where things started changing – and oddly that can be seen in many series, with both Erikson and Martin changing gears with their 5th novels as well – but it wasn’t 40% larger than The Shadow Rising. The Shadow Rising was about 393,000 words, making it the longest book in the series by a fair margin. The Fires of Heaven was a relatively modest 354,000 words in length.
It’s also interesting to note that the novels most accused of padding the series, CoS, PoD, WH, and CoT are also the shortest in the series, with none breaking the 300k word barrier. Winter’s Heart is 115,000 words (the length of an average Fantasy novel) shorter than The Fires of Heaven and 155,000 words shorter than The Shadow Rising.
Yup. PoD is the shortest book in the series, surprisingly, ‘only’ 550 pages or so in hardcover (the length of the average Guy Gavriel Kay novel).
I also think A CROWN OF SWORDS is unfairly thrown in with that group. Compared to the three that follow it (and the one before), a metric ton of stuff happens in that book. Quite a lot of storylines are followed and there’s some major, gamechanging stuff going on with the Seanchan. I think its #8-10 (and even the first half of the relatively well-received #11) where the main problems lie.
My error, I was thinking of The Shadow Rising. The jump from tSR from tDR is from ~650-1000 pages depending on the edition. That was what I was trying to point out. The first three books were decently sized. But as soon as you hit tSR, tFoH, tLoC and tCoS the books just explode in size.
I can’t help but smile at the idea that the plot of CoT was determined by a committee of publishing execs. ‘Here’s what we want to happen, Jim. We want Perrin to put the rescue of his wife on hold, and sift out weevils from grain in a hitherto unmentioned haunted town. We also want Elayne to take a very long bath while the remaining great houses of Andor get involved in the Succession – but make it complicated will you? If you don’t need a spreadsheet to get your head around it, then it’s not good enough. Oh, and the most important point is not explore the consequences of cleansing saidin at all. Have you got all that? Did I mention the weevils?’
‘Of course, Rand should be in it – but in a “blink and you’ll miss him” kinda way. Maybe he could just have an inconsequential chat with Cadsuane, and go back to bed. The important thing is that the reader should be unable to recall what Rand did in the book once they’ve finished reading it. And finally Egwene. Remember we left her two books ago poised to attack the White Tower. Well, here’s the twist. She doesn’t attack! She has lots of meetings! Actually, no, let’s not go overboard. Maybe – she could organise meetings that other Aes Sedai, but not her, attend! That would give the Egwene storyline a ‘Microsoft Outlook’ kind of vibe, to counterpoint the more Excel feel to Elayne’s storyline.’
‘As for Mat, I’m thinking Haberdashery visits’ Reader feedback is telling us that Haberdasheries aren’t mentioned enough in the previous novels, and who better than Mat to be surrounded by swatches of silk, lace and brocaded velvet. Some of the younger, male readers may not be liking the new direction, so make sure something vaguely unsettling happens to him like walking past a ghost.’
[…] I didn’t annoy Wheel of Time fans enough last week, I thought I’d try again this week. I’m currently about two-thirds of […]
seems to me that jordan simply grew more comfortable with the the world and characters he had created as time went on and his style of writing developed accordingly. to point out the growing and growing word count of each new book as a negative is just.. well… pure stupidity. people read series BECAUSE of the length and depth to them, as having multiple books allows for some real character development, though a few series out still are unable to do anything other then”kill this one.. that will create drama”. i will admit that he(jordan) does tend to reiterate things well established in previous books but considering the number of years between many of them i dont see that as much of a negative, its a nice refresher. also it gives new comers to the series the ability to pick up pretty much any book before the 7th or so and not be completely lost.
I’m interestedin what the main article says were the monumental efforts Jordan made in his final weeks of life to get the ‘necessary materials’ together that would ensure the series continued.
Not being up on the ins and outs, does anyone know what these efforts entailed? Dictation of storylines? Actual writing? Keen to know.
Robert Jordan started writing what was supposed to be the final book in late 2005, before KNIFE OF DREAMS was published. He was diagnosed with his illness a few weeks later and underwent delibitating treatment from then until his passing in late 2007. During that time he wrote key scenes in full (including Moiraine’s rescue in TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT and the final scenes of A MEMORY OF LIGHT), wrote a full and detailed outline of the book and made copious notes on almost every character (major or minor) and what happens to them at the end. When he was too ill to type, he dictated. He also talked to his wife and editor Harriet, his cousin and his two assistants in depth about the end of the story. IIRC, Brandon Sanderson has said the notes for the final book (now final three books) comprised tens of thousands of words by themselves.
Given the guy was dying, the effort he went to in order to ensure the series was completed is nothing short of stunning.
@Cazalinghau’s comments are spot on as far as I’m concerned. The later books in the series show all the signs of a writer who is now indulging his own whims – and in this particular case, his own adolescent fantasies as well – but whose editor is reluctant to make significant changes. I find the whole thing rather sad, because Book One was really quite an enjoyable read.
I agree with Cazalinghau’s comments. I really enjoyed the first 6 or 7 books in the series. By I think PoD, I was convinced that Tor or Jordan was needlessly stretching out the series and refused to buy any more of the books (I did end up getting books 8-11 from the library). I remember years ago posting my disappointment at the pace of the series in a WoT forum, but angry zealots proclaimed that I was mistaken; the plot remained as captivating as ever. With tGSand ToM, I believe the series has regained the driving plot it once had (although there are some minor annoying linguistic styles in Sanderson’s writing that detract from the story). I am now re-reading the series in eager anticipation of the final book (skimming large sections of books 8-11). If you stopped reading the series because of the flaws in the middle books, tGS and ToM will draw you back in.
I was in love with Robert Jordan up until his 6th book. The joy I got out of books one through six had me admiring this man greatly and thinking he could do no wrong. He was a god amongst writing in my opinion at the time. It was the end of the 6th book and most of the 7th book that I began losing my love for the man and his work. I dutifully read the 8th, and 9th books thinking, what is happening?
My main draw to this was Rand, it was always about Rand, the tangents initially were nice, but grew more and more distracting. I don’t recall exactly cause it runs on, but between book 7 and book 12. Rand was kinda fazed out. There was one book that went 13 chapters before having Rand talk.
Robert Jordon lost me around book 7, and I stayed on through loyalty til book 12, after that I wished he’d die a horrible death for what he did to the series. I told this to people around 2005, joking of course. Everyone who followed the series seemed to agree with me.
I’m not an idiot who believes in religion, superstition, or that what I hoped for could result in his death, but I was kinda glad when he died. It served him right to not complete his opus when he was alive, because he sold out and and dragged the storyline out for 6 books longer then he should have. I’ve yet to read the finish of the series. I do want to, but I’ve already finished the story in my mind, how it should have ended long ago.
In my imagination the ending was much better then any Jordan or Sanderson could write. Rand and the other male characters grew backbones with the women in this time period, and fought the last battle in all the epic scale it deserved. I feel any ending Jordan or Sanderson at this point will only disappoint. Rand and the story in my mind ended long ago, when Jordan sold out, I made my peace with the character and my ending suits me just fine. No need for anyone else to ruin my own ending.
TLDR
Jordon was a god for books 1-6, a sell out 7-R.I.P. He was a great author who could have written the best epic ever written, instead decided selling books was better worth his time then creating an epic story that would be talked about for ages, and forever mark him as one of the greatest could have been authors ever. What he was in short was a writer who had 6 great books then forever tarnished his epic, and his writing, with what came after.